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Approved 4/3/19 <br /> 225 <br />James Bryan: I understand that, and I think you are defeating the purpose if you don’t expand it. It’s 600 pages and not 226 <br />user friendly to begin with. If you were to leave the burden of persuasion out and leave it implicit, then those wily attorneys 227 <br />are going to be only ones able to pick that out while the average person wouldn’t look for the loopholes. This is closing the 228 <br />loopholes and making it harder for attorneys to get around the system. 229 <br /> 230 <br />Randy Marshall: This seems to create loopholes. If there is no concrete criteria for persuasion, any attorney can 231 <br />challenge not being persuaded when there is no criteria or definition for persuasion. It is left up to the governing board to 232 <br />say, whatever you put out there, I am not persuaded. It provides an undue decision-making authority on the governing 233 <br />board who rules. I would prefer to see Orange County go in it’s own direction and then if there’s a problem with that, it will 234 <br />surface. I can’t see that someone would come and say they will take us to court because we didn’t add the phrase. 235 <br /> 236 <br />James Bryan: Either John or I are at the boards and we would advise against those arguments. The enabling statutes 237 <br />say that someone has to have substantial material and competent evidence and case law indicates that once you have 238 <br />that you have a right to the permit. That is the burden of proof. The different parts of it about the production of documents 239 <br />and persuasive arguments are subparts to that. 240 <br /> 241 <br />Adam Beeman: I have applied for permits in this County since 2008, and I just don’t see is as being a fair process to 242 <br />someone who can’t afford deep pockets to get out of it. If you just scratch persuasion off, I am happy. But you are telling 243 <br />me I have to persuade you yet don’t give me any concrete steps to hit. That is a problem for me. It seems objectified. I 244 <br />read your paragraph that if I provide all of this stuff then I deserve it, so then scratch out persuasion because I have 245 <br />accomplished all of that. Why do I have to persuade you? If I come in and present my evidence and testimony, I have 246 <br />either persuaded you or not. 247 <br /> 248 <br />James Bryan: It is a problem with semantics, but I am telling you what the law says. The law says you are always 249 <br />persuading the Board. The Board has discretion. 250 <br /> 251 <br />Adam Beeman: That is my problem. It seems like a backdoor to say no to any project regardless if I qualify or not. 252 <br /> 253 <br />James Bryan: It can’t be that. 254 <br /> 255 <br />Adam Beeman: It sounds like it. I am a layperson not a legalese, and it doesn’t make sense to me. When I read it, it 256 <br />sounds like you are discouraging me from doing it. I am at the mercy of presenting my case instead of handing you the 257 <br />facts. 258 <br /> 259 <br />James Bryan: The facts aren’t the facts. 260 <br /> 261 <br />David Blankfard: I have an example of the facts aren’t the facts. I was on the Board of Adjustment and we had an 262 <br />applicant come in and say they wanted to have a kennel put in. They had their own realtor come in and say it’s going to 263 <br />maintain or enhance their property, but the neighbors had another expert say, no, it is not going to. We had to pick 264 <br />between the two on who was most persuasive. 265 <br /> 266 <br />Randy Marshall: Persuasive or factual? 267 <br /> 268 <br />David Blankfard: They were both qualified but just had different opinions. 269 <br /> 270 <br />Michael Harvey: They drew different conclusions from the facts. 271 <br /> 272 <br />Adam Beeman: And that is the problem with persuasion that I have. Mr. Harvey mentioned earlier that any time you go 273 <br />for these permits, you would be advised to have a lawyer. You are setting me up right out of the gate to have to spend 274 <br />money. 275 <br /> 276 <br />Craig Benedict: I don’t know if this is an operable solution. One suggestion was to put a definition and James said 277 <br />probably not. Sometimes in state construction of statutes there are some unknowns and what is done later is they ask for 278 <br />an attorney general opinion on what that really means. Could the attorney’s office put an attorney’s opinion of how we 279 <br />operate that burden of persuasion in an argument and explain? If we could get some sort of attorney opinion outside of it 280